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Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654764
12/12/2021 18:54
12/12/2021 18:54
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There were several odd decisions today. Over the entire season, I reckon they evened out in terms of who they favoured.
Mercedes had no choice but to appeal (too much at stake not to), but the FIA will never overturn the decision (probably rightly).

The tough part is that you can't freeze the action while the stewards look at the VAR as you do in football or cricket, so the decisions are literally on the fly.
In my view, Merc lost the race by not pitting Lewis under the SC. But I'm very very glad it wasn't me making that call!
I wanted Lewis to win, but Max beat him in the end. Not a very satisfactory way to decide a race, never mind a championship, but pretty fitting for this insane season.
Roll on 2022.

Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654765
12/12/2021 20:08
12/12/2021 20:08
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Perhaps a red flag would have been the right decision in the circumstances

Re: F1 championship finale [Re: PeteP] #1654767
12/12/2021 20:39
12/12/2021 20:39
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Originally Posted by PeteP
Originally Posted by Cooperman
What a total farce! This 2021 F1 Season has been littered in questionable decisions but that safety car call is the last straw.
The FIA have lost control and legitimacy in a single stroke.

Agree 100%,


I think they lost legitimacy too — but when they didn’t penalise Hamilton when he left the track and didn’t get penalised
Also a fair result after Hamilton punted Max of in Sliverstone in a mega dangerous move he was never going to make — both drove well over the season but Max deserves the title — merc a superior car — Max the superior driver — but maybe just maybe I’m biased


was Paul S,now just paul...Member since Oct 2000,Coupe may be FATALLY injured - :(oh no it's not smile
Re: F1 championship finale [Re: paul] #1654769
12/12/2021 22:07
12/12/2021 22:07
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Originally Posted by paul
Originally Posted by PeteP
Originally Posted by Cooperman
What a total farce! This 2021 F1 Season has been littered in questionable decisions but that safety car call is the last straw.
The FIA have lost control and legitimacy in a single stroke.

Agree 100%,


I think they lost legitimacy too — but when they didn’t penalise Hamilton when he left the track and didn’t get penalised
Also a fair result after Hamilton punted Max of in Sliverstone in a mega dangerous move he was never going to make — both drove well over the season but Max deserves the title — merc a superior car — Max the superior driver — but maybe just maybe I’m biased


I thought the decision on Lewis was fine - Max’s overtake left him absolutely nowhere to go but off. And the Silverstone thing was never “mega dangerous”. Both drivers were great this season. Lewis totally deserved to win that race though.

Last edited by MeanRedSpider; 13/12/2021 06:40.
Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654787
13/12/2021 22:27
13/12/2021 22:27
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Don’t agree — Lewis left the door wide open for Max to come up the inside — he should have lost the place due to his bad driving and known Max would have jumped on his mistake and Martin Brundle even said — he will have to give that place back Verstappen stayed fully on the track and Hamilton made the mistaken

The incident at sileverstone was thee most dangerous manoeuvre the whole year ( and I don’t agree it WAS mega dangerous — max ended up
In hospital would it have been deemed mega dangerous if he had been seriously injured !! ) Hamilton would never have made that corner if he had not used Max as a buffer totally wrong line at a ridiculous speed go on a track and try it impossible line to take that corner and stay on the track —and again in the words of Martin Brundle if he was playing football he would have been sent off — wether he drove well after it or not a 10 second penalty was ridiculous

I’m neither a Verstappen or Hamilton fan so not blinkered the best season (even if not always the fairest ) for a long time needed the raw talent of Max to wake up a sport where Hamilton has gone relatively unchallenged and in the best car for the past 7 years Red Bull knew they couldn’t beat them
In a straight scrap so had to ‘play the game ‘ in a way that suited them — as many football managers have to do Hamilton winged and moaned all season because another team was not playing by ‘his’ rules — the last race was exiting but not the way the championship should have been decided but Max got the most out of his car all season and in the end I think not only deserved the title more than Hamilton but drove better than him
All change for next season but if Hamilton doesn’t know what to expect by now — time to start knitting Max is no more or less dangerous a driver than Senna or Schumacher et all where

I just wish the rest of the teams can catch up with Merc in terms of performance— they we can really see how good Hamilton really is — now that would be good racing


was Paul S,now just paul...Member since Oct 2000,Coupe may be FATALLY injured - :(oh no it's not smile
Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654793
14/12/2021 07:43
14/12/2021 07:43
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I totally respect Martin Brundle’s views but his are just one of a number of very experienced drivers on this. Far from all agree with him

I’m nowhere near as experienced as MB but I have done +/- 100 races myself. Max’s form of driving is extremely aggressive - he basically throws his car into situations where he challenges the other driver to back out or crash. Frankly, like BTCC, it pi55es me off to see this type of driving because it filters down to other levels of the sport.

In Abu Dhabi, he threw it up the inside leaving Hamilton nowhere to go but off. It not “bad driving” from Lewis (Max was miles back) but ultra aggressive driving by Max. It’s why Lewis wasn’t penalised.

Silverstone was in some ways similar - both drivers were on the edge but there’s plenty of room in Copse for two cars to pass side-by-side - but Max took an aggressive line and Lewis ran slightly wide and they touched. It’s a very fast corner like many in F1 and it ended badly for Max. I’ve both overtaken in Copse and been overtaken. Max could have given Lewis more room but that’s not his style. Lewis got the penalty for running slightly wide but it wasn’t mega dangerous driving by Lewis - nothing close.

If you’re not a Mac fan, you’re doing a very good job of sounding like one. You haven’t mentioned the 3 penalties Max got in Jeddah - or him running over Lewis at Monza, or running Lewis off the road in Brazil - all of which could have been “mega dangerous” except Lewis doesn’t drive anywhere near as aggressively as Max so avoids most of the crashes.

Max is a great talent and great for the sport - can’t wait to see George Russell and him in similar machines. But the outcome of the race on Sunday was straightforwardly wrong.

Re: F1 championship finale [Re: MeanRedSpider] #1654796
14/12/2021 11:09
14/12/2021 11:09
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Originally Posted by MeanRedSpider
I totally respect Martin Brundle’s views but his are just one of a number of very experienced drivers on this. Far from all agree with him

But the outcome of the race on Sunday was straightforwardly wrong.


yup as I said "not the way the championship should have been decided '

yes, but sorry Martin Brundle is one of the most respected and experienced commentators in F1 and regarded as the new voice of F1 since the passing of Murray .... on both points he got a agreement from fellow commentators ,in Brazil they both totally outbraked themselves into a massive run of area , easily shown by steering wheel angles , yes I have also raced many many times also ( err was many many years ago in a Westfield 7 )

at Silverstone Max took the recognised racing line ,Lewis knew fine well what he was doing ... Max at Monza was bang out of order , but simply getting Lewis back for Silverstone , it was like this all season , I was nearly mentioning cases from a non Hamilton point of view, but you lot being English view him through rose tinted glasses laugh ,so I was basically throwing in a different point of view .
they are both great drivers , but I think Hamilton has had the best car for the best part of 7 years and yes he has made the most of it , but I also think if you had put Alonso .Leclerc , Verstappen , et al in the same car you would have got the same outcome ... as Mr Russell very nearly shown when he got his chance in it .

Hamilton has done a fantastic job in a great car and team , it took a rawer style of driving ...and an obvious relaxation of the way the rules have ben interpreted , to make the season what it was ,instead of what had become a very much , 'oh please you first sir' attitude towards overtaking because of a stifling interpretation of the rules on racing which had gone before and killing F1 by making it a procession and total boredom , and no I don't condone wheel banging touring car driving , but there has to be a middle ground in my opinion ...role on next year


was Paul S,now just paul...Member since Oct 2000,Coupe may be FATALLY injured - :(oh no it's not smile
Re: F1 championship finale [Re: MeanRedSpider] #1654797
14/12/2021 11:38
14/12/2021 11:38
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Originally Posted by MeanRedSpider
What he said...


Totally agree.

As for Mr Brundle he's like a flag dancing in the wind - A week ago he said:

Quote


Max Verstappen has been "playing the game" over the past few races, knowing he can afford penalties with his points advantage over Lewis Hamilton. The FIA have no choice but to hand him penalties if he steps out of line. Formula One has a problem in that the design of the racetracks, particularly with regard to the 'safety' run-off areas, and the Sporting Regulations, simply can't contain the way that Max Verstappen is choosing to go racing at the moment. The FIA's only way to control him is with endless reviews and occasional penalties. He's sometimes able to pull off the audacious moves and leave a margin of doubt as to whether it's hard racing or simply a professional foul outside of the regulations.

It's those moments, such as the infamous turn four in Brazil, which are generating the confusion, controversies, and inconsistencies.


He's been hugely critical of the sport throughout a season that he is now suggesting is the best F1 season ever! confused rolleyes

For me the end of this race looked like blatant race manipulation. No amount of "the Race Director can choose which rules he applies" makes it any better, it actually makes it worse, as have all the inconsistent penalties being applied over the last few years. It has to be accepted that the manipulation made the ending more "entertaining" and gave the title to the plucky entertaining youngster. But this is supposed to be a sport, not an engineered drama series, I guess the fact F1 is owned by a media company & the sale of media rights to Netflix etc has more influence over the outcome than what happens between the start lights and the finishing flag! It will be interesting to see how this season affects sponsorship and vehicle manufacturer involvement. Will VW buy in or simply walk away?


Gone Audi mad!
Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654799
14/12/2021 14:28
14/12/2021 14:28
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only comment to make

it's supposed to be a sport ....it was 40 years ago .............its now a big business plain and simple , wrapped around a 'sport ' , and we all agree we didn't want the season to end like it did, the crucial part I don't understand is why he didn't allow all the back markers to go past the safety car, we wouldn't be having this discussion if he did , I don't think it was for financial or business gains , the race end had been dramatic enough to keep every fan and casual viewer enthralled , I believe he wanted to end the season with a great finish rather than a safety car ending , but we will never know what the real influence on him made him decide that was the preferred option ,one team principle saying you cant do this ,the other team principle saying otherwise I don't think Hamilton winning or max winning after all that had happened would have been detrimental to the spectacle it truly was , doubt we will ever know


was Paul S,now just paul...Member since Oct 2000,Coupe may be FATALLY injured - :(oh no it's not smile
Re: F1 championship finale [Re: paul] #1654802
14/12/2021 17:56
14/12/2021 17:56
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Originally Posted by paul
only comment to make

it's supposed to be a sport ....it was 40 years ago .............its now a big business plain and simple , wrapped around a 'sport ' , and we all agree we didn't want the season to end like it did, the crucial part I don't understand is why he didn't allow all the back markers to go past the safety car, we wouldn't be having this discussion if he did , I don't think it was for financial or business gains , the race end had been dramatic enough to keep every fan and casual viewer enthralled , I believe he wanted to end the season with a great finish rather than a safety car ending , but we will never know what the real influence on him made him decide that was the preferred option ,one team principle saying you cant do this ,the other team principle saying otherwise I don't think Hamilton winning or max winning after all that had happened would have been
detrimental to the spectacle it truly was , doubt we will ever know


I think the fact was that they realised that if they had waited for all the cars to have us lapped themselves the safety car would likely have missed the pit lane entry point and no last lap stitch up would have been possible.


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Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654803
14/12/2021 18:18
14/12/2021 18:18
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It is still as much of a sport as it ever was with teams grasping every advantage that they can whether legal or not. In those days, the price may have been the driver’s life - these days it’s sponsors. I know which I prefer.

Anyone but the English, heh? wink I lived in the Highlands for 15 years - I know the game.

Your point about Silverstone and the “racing line” flies totally in the face of your admiration for Max’s overtake at Abu Dhabi which had nothing to do with any “racing line”. If you did race, it must have been bizarre.

Brazil Lewis would have made the corner had Max not done another stupidly aggressive move. EVERYBODY seems to accept that FIA screwed up completely in their decisions and that has been referred to by so many people since. Even FIA said it was no longer acceptable. And, if Max is petty enough to be paying anybody back for anything, he has no place in F1 let along as world champion.

I think Max is a great driver but he drives like an Amsterdammer - “I don’t care what you do just do long as you don’t get in my way”. He’s been in so many stewards situations because he drives like he does - but he can’t see that.

Ultimately it is FIA who need to carry the can - they aren’t managing the situation well enough.

Re: F1 championship finale [Re: MeanRedSpider] #1654804
14/12/2021 19:49
14/12/2021 19:49
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Originally Posted by MeanRedSpider


If you did race, it must have been bizarre.

.


So not only questioning if I’m telling the truth slagging me off
Thought we where having a decent conversation

Obviously I was wrong — sad person
No further input


was Paul S,now just paul...Member since Oct 2000,Coupe may be FATALLY injured - :(oh no it's not smile
Re: F1 championship finale [Re: paul] #1654805
14/12/2021 20:11
14/12/2021 20:11
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Aye, I agree, I’m not going to comment of todays F1, I’m old school and watched in the 60s and 70s very dangerous back then, but it was far more entertaining in my view, perhaps wrong to say that but scrapes and accidents did make things interesting. Money plays a major part that’s obvious, especially so today. Mrs what’s with the 15 years in the Highlands and you know how to play the game, anybody apart from the English!!!!!!!! where did that come from on here.? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but forcing your thoughts at a members ridicule is not doing your point of view any favours.


I'm an old git & happy with it,most of the time
Re: F1 championship finale [Re: paul] #1654806
14/12/2021 20:57
14/12/2021 20:57
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Originally Posted by paul
Originally Posted by MeanRedSpider


If you did race, it must have been bizarre.

.


So not only questioning if I’m telling the truth slagging me off
Thought we where having a decent conversation

Obviously I was wrong — sad person
No further input


Sorry if I upset you but I’m trying to match what you’re saying with racing - especially your comments on Silverstone.

Re: F1 championship finale [Re: paul] #1654813
14/12/2021 23:45
14/12/2021 23:45
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Originally Posted by paul
Originally Posted by MeanRedSpider


If you did race, it must have been bizarre.

.


So not only questioning if I’m telling the truth slagging me off
Thought we where having a decent conversation

Obviously I was wrong — sad person
No further input


Wow, that escalated quickly!

Don't be so sensitive, Paul, I don't think Max would have flounced at that comment.

In fairness, you were the one that mentioned a) being biased and b) saying that "you lot" see Hamilton through tinted glasses because we're English.
I've witnessed plenty of ABE in my time and it does look quite a bit like it!

Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1654815
15/12/2021 00:07
15/12/2021 00:07
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Originally Posted by Jim_Clennell


In fairness, you were the one that mentioned a) being biased and b) saying that "you lot" see Hamilton through tinted glasses because we're English.




I read the "English" comment wondering what might ensue, but in fairness also noted a laugh after it which I interpreted as a poke of fun - which is something we can tolerate on here.

Reading the thread from the beginning was good education for me as I don't follow F1 but I now feel qualified to spout on this topic after reading the many exchanges.

It's been a while too since the forum had a healthy debate like this so all we need is some other current controversy to keep on track...ohhh......perhaps I shouldn't have said that box


BumbleBee back:)
Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Edinburgh] #1654816
15/12/2021 00:44
15/12/2021 00:44
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I’m a bit surprised at the anti English insinuations. In all fairness this type of engagement is mostly fuelled by the press, especially rags like the Sun. When I was working as a welder in the yards, I would pick up a Sun newspaper that was lying about and the sheer anti English statements were shocking. Now I remember visiting a friend down in Bournemouth and we had a big fry up breakfast at one of the cafes. Sun newspaper on the table and it was all anti Scottish nonsense. That was back in the 90s. Who the hell buys this crap.

I think it’s safe to say on both north and south of the border there are some nutters who fly their flag too vigorously shall we say, but I really haven’t heard anything for some time. Under the circumstances we all need to get on with each other more than ever.


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Re: F1 championship finale [Re: jimboy] #1654819
15/12/2021 08:32
15/12/2021 08:32
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“I think it’s safe to say on both north and south of the border there are some nutters who fly their flag too vigorously shall we say, but I really haven’t heard anything for some time. Under the circumstances we all need to get on with each other more than ever. [/quote]”

Have to agree with you Jimboy. F1 has become very polarised which is understandable to a point in respect to team / driver support but the one common message that has been delivered before each race has been “We race as One”
I have to say it’s something that F1 can be proud of but clearly the commercial pressures are such even racing in Saudi & Qatar with their human rights record seem to have have progressed with limited comment.

Last edited by Cooperman; 15/12/2021 08:32.

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Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654820
15/12/2021 09:10
15/12/2021 09:10
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Jimboy - I wholeheartedly agree with you. Division between Nations (whether England/Scotland or any other combination) is usually driven by politics and money, using the media as the delivery system.
I read far too many F1 websites and blogs and it has been very apparent that a substantial majority encourage the polarisation between Max and Lewis as rage/clickbait.
What's more, most of the sites based outside the UK, angle their stories towards Max and against Lewis, which is understandable. It's usually only in the comment columns that the base tribal insults appear.
To be fair, it's not difficult to nurture anti-English sentiment when it comes to sport: the unforgivable behaviour of a shameful number of "fans" during the Euros gave anyone who wanted it a fantastic amount of fuel for that fire. And although the vast majority of genuine supporters behaved just fine, we will be judged by the worst.
Living in France for almost 20 years, watching all kinds of sport in my local (Irish) bar, I've seen and heard so much "Anyone But England" attitude that I know this is true.
If you combine that with the desire for change that a lot of F1 fans that don't follow Lewis will naturally feel (I remember that feeling when Schumacher was in his pomp), then you shouldn't be surprised that some people put it all together and become implacably polarised.

I think the common ground here is that it was an incredible, dramatic championship fought between two brilliant but contrasting drivers that deserved to be decided in a less contentious way.

I feel privileged to have watched it unfold and I'm absolutely buzzing for next year.

Re: F1 championship finale [Re: MeanRedSpider] #1654822
15/12/2021 10:49
15/12/2021 10:49
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Originally Posted by MeanRedSpider
Originally Posted by paul
Originally Posted by MeanRedSpider


If you did race, it must have been bizarre.

.


So not only questioning if I’m telling the truth slagging me off
Thought we where having a decent conversation

Obviously I was wrong — sad person
No further input


Sorry if I upset you but I’m trying to match what you’re saying with racing - especially your comments on Silverstone.


just too clear up ..at no time did I question if you had actually raced or a 'story' I took you at your word , I never made any personal comments , on how I imagine you drive , as I said earlier, I was just throwing in a different point of view, and enjoying peoples views on the what happened on Sunday , and the current state of F1 , at no time did I get personal , and I see no reason for anybody else to !

and yes Jim the 'English' comment was purely a bit of fun , to keep things light, hence the laugh ( didn't appear to work ) ,I actually have Italians parents and passport ,so who am I to comment , and also my son in law is English , and we have had great banter/chats about Hamilton / Verstappen or even England v Italy euro final wink , so I think any chat about, the papers ,England - Scotland ,biased, etc is way overboard , crikey where are we if cant have a bit of fun ,


was Paul S,now just paul...Member since Oct 2000,Coupe may be FATALLY injured - :(oh no it's not smile
Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1654825
15/12/2021 11:35
15/12/2021 11:35
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Originally Posted by Jim_Clennell
Jimboy - I wholeheartedly agree with you. Division between Nations (whether England/Scotland or any other combination) is usually driven by politics and money, using the media as the delivery system.
I read far too many F1 websites and blogs and it has been very apparent that a substantial majority encourage the polarisation between Max and Lewis as rage/clickbait.
What's more, most of the sites based outside the UK, angle their stories towards Max and against Lewis, which is understandable. It's usually only in the comment columns that the base tribal insults appear.
To be fair, it's not difficult to nurture anti-English sentiment when it comes to sport: the unforgivable behaviour of a shameful number of "fans" during the Euros gave anyone who wanted it a fantastic amount of fuel for that fire. And although the vast majority of genuine supporters behaved just fine, we will be judged by the worst.
Living in France for almost 20 years, watching all kinds of sport in my local (Irish) bar, I've seen and heard so much "Anyone But England" attitude that I know this is true.
If you combine that with the desire for change that a lot of F1 fans that don't follow Lewis will naturally feel (I remember that feeling when Schumacher was in his pomp), then you shouldn't be surprised that some people put it all together and become implacably polarised.

I think the common ground here is that it was an incredible, dramatic championship fought between two brilliant but contrasting drivers that deserved to be decided in a less contentious way.

I feel privileged to have watched it unfold and I'm absolutely buzzing for next year.


Good write up Jim. smile

Just to add, I’m a very proud Scot, it’s kind of ingrained in me like others in Scotland and believe it or not, I can trace my heritage back to Culioden and the 1745. The history of Scotland is peppered with stories of intrigue myth and reality. Romance ,cruelty in the mix. I do get a bit passionate about where I live, at times I can’t explain my feelings it’s one of those things. Scotland is just one of those places. Amazing scenery to boot, ach there I go again, stop Jim.

Last edited by jimboy; 15/12/2021 12:01.

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Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654835
15/12/2021 15:26
15/12/2021 15:26
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To get back to the main topic. Dutchy here with a lot of F1 fans around me, including those who saw the race in Abu Dhabi. Of course we are biased towards Max. Because he is Dutch (sort of) and because he is the underdog. But in my surroundings including me Hamilton is held in high regards, for his racing and for behaviour outside the race. In my opinion Max was lucky but took his chance and the decisions by the referees were defendable though debatable. Hamilton was quicker in this race. Though during the year, both had chances to create a gap between them.

Last edited by jaaps2; 15/12/2021 15:27.

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Re: F1 championship finale [Re: jaaps2] #1654836
15/12/2021 16:17
15/12/2021 16:17
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jaaps2 - good to get your perspective - and of course the Dutch (and Belgians?) are right to be proud of Max.
It's refreshing to hear that Lewis it's held in high esteem for his racing and other work.
I think the booing that has followed both drivers around the world has been really disappointing and does not reflect the way true F1 fans behave.

Personally, the people who ground my gears this year were Horner and Marko, who came across as bitter and grubby.
They clearly, from the outset, had a strategy of aggressively briefing against anyone and everything that stood in the way of Max's title bid (as uncompromising as Max's driving you might say).
However, this eventually triggered a similar (if classier) response from Wolff and Mercedes, which ended up making it a sordid and devalued spectacle, fought in the stewards' room rather than on track.
The irony is that I believe that Red Bull are the best on the grid at making on the fly and brilliant strategy calls, and may well have won the championship in a much better way by keeping their mouths shut and winding their necks in.

Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654839
15/12/2021 16:45
15/12/2021 16:45
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My take is that under pressure at the end Michael Masi made a very bad decision. We had an interesting season with two drivers from different teams battling throughout - a great situation. It was set up perfectly with even points for them going into the last race, but one of them having a slight upper hand having won mor e races (although I'm not sure 2 laps behind a safety car can be called a race...). The timing of the last safety car meant that by the most commonly applied rule the race would finish under the yellow flag which would be a disappointment. So as race director Masi tried to ensure a racing lap. He had an alternative in the rule book to finishing behind the safety car, that of not letting lapped cars pass. He said that would happen and immediately Christian Whinger Spice got on the radio to him and said the lapped cars needed to be let past, in the heat of the moment Masi bent to that request in a way not in the rule book and Red Bull got their miracle. Without that Lewis would have won behind the safety car. If the lapped cars hadn't been let past (which is allowed in the rule book) Max would have had to pass the lapped cars, who would be obliged to make it easy for him, before catching Lewis, possibly setting up an end of lap battle Max might have won. But instead, the win was handed to Max on a plate due to the tyre advantage he had.

In terms of the tyre advantage the second of two cars always has the benefit of hindsight in that situation - they can do the opposite of what the leader does. Mercedes had no way of having that hindsight and would have lost track position by pitting Lewis with the race then finishing behind the safety car and everyone talking about them making the most catastrophic strategy move ever. In racing there are knowns and there are variables, the rules should never be the variables, but on Sunday they were.

I really don't want the championship decided anywhere but the track, however, I do feel Mercedes have no choice but to take this to appeal because it is the only way to ensure that rules won't be the variables in the future - without that clarity F1 loses.


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Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654842
15/12/2021 18:18
15/12/2021 18:18
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DaveG Online content
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A good summary andyps, and I like the name "Christian Whinger Spice" Brilliant! laugh Another thing I thought was odd was that when they finally started racing again on the final lap, Max was pretty much level with Lewis rather than being in a clear gap behind (not that it would have made any difference). A disappointing end for sure, ruined only by on-the-spot rule changes (I would have been happy for Max to win if he had been in the lead during that final safety car period)

Last edited by DaveG; 15/12/2021 18:23.

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Re: F1 championship finale [Re: DaveG] #1654845
15/12/2021 18:42
15/12/2021 18:42
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Originally Posted by DaveG
A good summary andyps, and I like the name "Christian Whinger Spice" Brilliant! laugh Another thing I thought was odd was that when they finally started racing again on the final lap, Max was pretty much level with Lewis rather than being in a clear gap behind (not that it would have made any difference). A disappointing end for sure, ruined only by on-the-spot rule changes (I would have been happy for Max to win if he had been in the lead during that final safety car period)


I was taught when doing my race licence qualification at Knockhill that “level isn’t overtaking” so, whilst you shouldn’t fall back too far, provided you don’t actually overtake (get your nose ahead - which Merc claimed Max did) you can draw level.

I loved Whinger Spice too laugh

Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654852
15/12/2021 23:21
15/12/2021 23:21
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F1 is now a total farce and no longer a sport

Ferrari should be protesting the result as well as Mercedes - Masi handed Hamilton to Max on a plate by removing all the lapped cars, but no such advantage was given to Sainz. Aa result Max didn’t need to worry about any challenge from behind, making his already ridiculously easy overtake even easier….

Who knows, Sainz might have thrown one up the inside and taken the race win, but we’ll never know as it wasn’t a level playing field

As for not wanting the race to finish under the safety car, did anyone watch the race at Spa??? Two laps under the safety car and we’ll award half points - total joke and contributed to Mercedes being hamstrung on strategy in the last race due to Max having more ‘wins’

Against any other driver Mercedes would have pitted Hamilton and not worried too much about track position as they knew Lewis’ superior pace would win out. Of course with Crashstappen to overtake, and knowing a crash gives him WDC, that was far too risky.

Protocol should have been followed, article 48.12 provides for ALL lapped cars to unlap themselves, that would have taken them into lap 57, safety car in at end of lap, race ‘restarts’ when the lead car crosses the finish line (which of course it wouldn’t as it would be the end of the race)

If there is ever a next time, I hope Toto tells the 2nd Mercedes’ to simply park on the apex of a corner, thus preventing the safety car being called in……


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Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654853
16/12/2021 00:28
16/12/2021 00:28
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andyps Offline
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There is a very interesting legal analysis of the rules applied (or not) here - https://medium.com/@gwkj1/analysing...-prix-a-lawyers-perspective-571ca3810060

Last edited by andyps; 16/12/2021 00:29.

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Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654854
16/12/2021 09:16
16/12/2021 09:16
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Kent, South East
Cooperman Offline OP
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Interesting piece that and it begs the question as to how the FIA placate Mercedes without looking like fools in the process. I can’t see how they can avoid sticking with the current outcome without getting themselves into legal wrangles that may impact next season and all the fall out that goes with it.


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Re: F1 championship finale [Re: Cooperman] #1654856
16/12/2021 12:34
16/12/2021 12:34
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Mercedes have withdrawn their appeal (as was always likely), based on reassurances from the FIA that they will conduct a thorough enquiry into what happened and prevent it happening again. Not looking good for Masi, I suspect.

Very importantly, Mercedes have issued a statement accepting the result and congratulating Red Bull and Max. This allows everyone to move on to changing the system so that this situation cannot arise again.

I've struggled to understand why the teams have access to the race director in the way we've seen and heard this year.
It's like footballers surrounding the ref. Adding drama for entertainment maybe, but we've seen why it doesn't work.

The contact should be one way: if the race director asks you for your input, you give it, then shut up.

At most, teams should be able to submit a request for their opinion to be considered.

All communications can be recorded and released post race to preserve transparency, but there is absolutely no need for teams to pressure officials.

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