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Finally, my RR graph! #266296
28/12/2006 15:13
28/12/2006 15:13

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at last, i went to RR yesterday, it is the only place to do RR here and i know they are not perfect but at least i will know where im am.

the results was not good at all,
- power : 243.6hp at 6400; graph (AFR : 13.6!! )
- Torque : 180Lb.ft at 5600; graph
- boost 1.2/1.3 bar to 0.8 at redline; graph (im not sure how it is showning 2.3 bar on the graph!!)

more data on the lambda readings, inlet temp, etc here & here ( my lambda reading 0.88!???)

BTW: my mods are:
PA FMIC
PA SIP with Apexi cone filter
supersprint De-cat & Cat back sys.
PRV
Gtech1
7ET NGK Spark Plugs
Dv26

from the AFR , i can see that it is running very lean which is not good, i was hoping to get away with the Gtec1 but its not! i have to get the Gtec2 + Walbro pump and wiring mode i think. but the operator mentioned that i need to change the injectors!!!?? why (i dont think so!)

so what do you think?? can the gtec2 & the modified pump solve this?? or shall i reduce the boost!??

omran

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266297
28/12/2006 15:52
28/12/2006 15:52

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Can you get Graham to make a higher fuelling version of the Gtec1?

BTW I wouldn't use the Gtec2 since your higher ambient temps will probably lead to det.

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266298
28/12/2006 16:35
28/12/2006 16:35

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Agree, a higher fuellign chip is probably all you need right now, make sure you don't have a fuel leak and have replaved your fuel filter if you havent ever doen so.

Joe

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266299
28/12/2006 17:00
28/12/2006 17:00
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Quote:

im not sure how it is showning 2.3 bar on the graph!!)





That is manifold absolute pressure so 1 bar above the boost you see on your gauge. It is correct.

You should change your fuel pump and do the voltage mod - that will increase the fuelling somewhat. If you are still running lean after that and a high fuelling chip then next is a 3.8 bar FPR, but I reckon the pump and voltage mod will fix the problem.

Dont boost it up if your AFR is 13.6 your asking for big trrouble.


Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP
Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266300
28/12/2006 17:19
28/12/2006 17:19

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thanks all for your feedback, well, im considering the fuel pump & the wiring mod for sure.. Car in Garage until sort the fueling issue, but do you think that running lean is holding my results?? i.e. will it produce more power with correct fueling??

HF gtec1 or gtec2 was my subject on the last few weeks, i think i have to do anther RR after fitting the pump tho

any other observations on the lambda reading??? also just want to say that the temp was 22deg and the inlet temp was 24deg which is good for PA IC i think..do i need more cooling??
i noticed also that the torque valve is low!?? what do you think??

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266301
28/12/2006 17:37
28/12/2006 17:37

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It wont produce more power with more fuel no. Bringing the fuelling into line will decrease the top end power.

Ross

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266302
28/12/2006 17:48
28/12/2006 17:48

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Quote:

It wont produce more power with more fuel no. Bringing the fuelling into line will decrease the top end power.




What?

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266303
28/12/2006 18:13
28/12/2006 18:13

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Because he is running lean, when he intoduces more fuelling it will decrease his top end. If we all ran 14.7afr at the redline then we would get the most power but its not safe to do so. Thats why we sacrifice some power for safety in the form of overfuelling. Some rolling roads say 13afr is fine for a turbo car but others say that 11afr is just about fine. Depends on the setup of the car really. In this occasion he would be wanting more fuelling top end hence decreasing his power.

Alternatively if he was running rich at redline i.e 11afr and he reduced the fuelling to say 11.8 then he would gain power as its a better mixture than before.

If you overfuel through the midrange i.e 10-11 afr then you will lose torque and bhp but when you reduce that fuelling you end up with more as its a better mixture.

Ross

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266304
28/12/2006 18:33
28/12/2006 18:33

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so its normal to have those figures for my setup!! something is going on (and don’t tell me it is the STd turbo!)

the operator told me to change the injectors , should i do so??

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266305
28/12/2006 20:00
28/12/2006 20:00

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that torque curve looks very strange

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266306
28/12/2006 21:14
28/12/2006 21:14
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Is the graph showing wheel power as DynoDynamics measure wheel power only without a coastdown for fly power? If not then your torque is way off the mark which either suggest some sort of problem with the car or the rollers.


[Linked Image]

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266307
28/12/2006 21:20
28/12/2006 21:20

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Exactly what I was thinking Flea. If that is at-wheel bhp, it looks fine for a standard turbo - if not, something is wrong, basically.

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266308
28/12/2006 23:15
28/12/2006 23:15
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,194
Göteborg, Sweden
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It must be at wheel bhp. I had 255 hp and 271 lb/ft at the fly wheel. My mods are Gtec1, PA FMIC and NGK BKUR 7ET.


Coupé Fiat 20V Turbo Plus 1999, T19 Mitsubishi turbo
https://youtu.be/O9qrLj3Ap00 Now FCP Stage3!
Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266309
29/12/2006 09:03
29/12/2006 09:03

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the operator doent know much, but he told me that my wheel hp is 204.8 as written!! & the flywheel hp is 243.6.. i tried to get more info from him but he doesnt know maybe...

anyway, it was also strange for me when I first saw it & i thought that the boost graph is the torque (as it seems to be right) but i noticed “bar” on the left vertical line

I think they are giving wrong torque or something, im not sure, but if the torque is wrong that’s men that the hp figure is also wrong!? It should be more for my mods!! i hope that the car doesnt has a hidin problem!!(cyl not working or something??)

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266310
29/12/2006 14:03
29/12/2006 14:03

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They are really weird graphs dude.

You have a massive flat spot in the middle for some reason, yet its not due to overfuelling as the car is running slightly lean throughout.

I think you should maybe look at a compression test or check your spark plugs out or something. Looks like something is defintely afoot.

Ross

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266311
29/12/2006 15:26
29/12/2006 15:26

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Omran, your torque curve certainly is pretty low, for a stanadrd coupe you should expect at 'least' 200 lb/ft, and that would be for normal boost of 1 bar, you are running 1.2/1.3 bar and when my car was setup similarly I would get over 260 lb/ft!

Your car is running far too lean, now in the ideal world the perfect air/fuel for developing 'power' would be about 13:1 not at the 'expected' stoich mixture,. this is because i nthe realt world, not every air molecule can find a fuel molecule ,so you need a richer mixture than expected.
However this is only part of the story, as although your air/fuel mixture is 'ideal' with higher boost levels your charge temperatures will be very high, as Coupes like a lot of turbo cars run richer than 13:1 to help in cylinder cooling.

If your charge temperatures are very high, then you may well be getting some level of pre ignition or possibly knock, and this would cause the Coupe knock sensors to be active and the ECU will pull back the timing and therefore you will lose power due to this.

You torque curve shoudl be level, and yours is not, which suggests something is up.

You seem to be running lean throughout which would suggest anything other than a fuel pump issue, and the standard pump has been known to run to 300bhp (albeit not necessarily safely) so no reason why that should be the issue, although I would still check the voltage here.

Only other reason will be a sensor/ecu problem, you ecu temp sensor could be out telling your ecu that it iis hotter!,..yes even hotter! and runnign lean.

The other aspect is that the gtec chip works well for Coupes in the UK, but you have different climate so the in built maps might acutaly be far out for fuelling?

What is the temperature with you at the moment?

regards

Joe

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266312
29/12/2006 16:59
29/12/2006 16:59

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Quote:

the operator doent know much, but he told me that my wheel hp is 204.8 as written!! & the flywheel hp is 243.6.. i tried to get more info from him but he doesnt know maybe...




This seems to be fine as the wheel hp is usually 85% of the flywheel hp..

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266313
29/12/2006 17:07
29/12/2006 17:07
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The torque curve isn't fine though! 180lbs/ft is down 40 on a standard coupé and as Joe says you should be making around 260lbs/ft with those mods so you are actually down by 80 Your boost curve looks fine and the inlet temps while quite high (no higher than a Summer here) shouldn't be causing you a problem especially with a FMIC. Everything points to your lean fueling and as Joe says ignition retardation due to detonation.


[Linked Image]

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266314
29/12/2006 17:43
29/12/2006 17:43

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Yep, looking at your torque curve and other info there in more detail..

Your torque curve runs with a hump, with low torque plateau 161 lb/ft up to 5000 rpm , then a higher level 184 lb/ft.

You have the boost readings which are to be expected, so no problem with the amount of air/fuel going into the engine, the a/f raio also says the mixture although lean is consistent.
so the only other variables that can make that much difference could be the cam timing variator, maybe it is stuck, normally it would change between 4600-5000rpm, or if you are getting ignition retardation, holding it back here, the most common timing to get knocjk would be midrange normally at point of maximum torque (normally around 4000rpm).

Joe

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266315
29/12/2006 18:45
29/12/2006 18:45

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thanks all for your comments all..ok then i have a problem

the temp nowadays is 18-20degs and the inlet temp as shown in the graph was 24 deg, which is not too much. i think i have a problem in the engine somewhere but i cant figure it out!!

how i can check the for the following:
-knocking
-timing variator problem
-engine failure

Do you think that a failure in my turbo can cause all this!!?? (turbo is not smoking at all!)

BTW, i know i have a problem in the radiator, but the temp gauge was always just below 90degs during the RR,.

Im really so upset from the results and I hope it can be solved easily.

omran

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266316
31/12/2006 02:33
31/12/2006 02:33

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no one

could it be the injectors???

i think first of all i will solve the fueling issue, then do anthor check...

Re: Finally, my RR graph! #266317
01/01/2007 20:38
01/01/2007 20:38
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west bromwich
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bit on the low side my graph shows 242bhp at 5900 with just and exhaust and induction.id start with fueling


[Linked Image]
Re: Finally, my RR graph! [Re: coupedummy] #274995
14/01/2007 01:43
14/01/2007 01:43

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Ok, sill waiting for the chips & pump and will do the compression test tomorrow. however, i just want to show you the old RR results [img]http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c99/omranyk/13012007007.jpg[/img] .
This graph was done with the same setup but without FMIC/SIP, and as you can see the increase is only 6hp!!! the car was running rich 11.2/11.0 at the red line.

Im just wondering, why torque value is soo law!??? cultch maybe!!?? what makes the car loosing torque?? Also how im running 244hp only??? i have a doubt on the STD Turbo & FMIC/SIP. Anyone has the same setup with STD Turbo or its only me!??

Re: Finally, my RR graph! [Re: coupedummy] #274996
14/01/2007 01:43
14/01/2007 01:43

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Ok, sill waiting for the chips & pump and will do the compression test tomorrow. however, i just want to show you the old RR results [img]http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c99/omranyk/13012007007.jpg[/img] .
This graph was done with the same setup but without FMIC/SIP, and as you can see the increase is only 6hp!!! the car was running rich 11.2/11.0 at the red line.

Im just wondering, why torque value is soo law!??? cultch maybe!!?? what makes the car loosing torque?? Also how im running 244hp only??? i have a doubt on the STD Turbo & FMIC/SIP. Anyone has the same setup with STD Turbo or its only me!??

Edit : the red line is with 3rd gear , the blue line is the same setup with 4th gear!!

Last edited by Omran; 14/01/2007 03:03.
Re: Finally, my RR graph! [Re: ] #275368
15/01/2007 11:43
15/01/2007 11:43

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just to update, i went to the only test available here and here are the results:
cyl time balance!!
injectors
spark plugs

i really didnt get anything from these results!! man there told me to check the injectors! he said that it is not balanced. the only thing i benefit from the visit is that my spark plugs are working fine. any comments?? can anybody get anything form these results??

Re: Finally, my RR graph! [Re: ] #276491
17/01/2007 17:58
17/01/2007 17:58

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Originally Posted By: Omran
i have a doubt on the STD Turbo & FMIC/SIP. Anyone has the same setup with STD Turbo or its only me!??


anyone has this setup??? can the cultch affect my torque values??


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