i want around 350bhp and these are the mods so far

Mods

The mods on this car are as follows:

SS Peco Exhaust System
3G 20 Groove Discs on Front and Rear
Greenstuff pads all round
Koni SSK Suspension – Adjustable front and rear shocks + Springs
Gtech 1
Unichip
Apexi AVCR EBC
Forge DV006 Dump Valve
K and N 57i Induction Kit
Walbro 255 Up-rated Fuel Pump
Pro Alloy FMIC (from group buy).

The last rolling road was 264.3 bhp and 247lb/ft (safe with Unichip)

so whats next apart from a turbo and how quick is a 350bhp coupe

doesn't that seem a little low?

yes but so is my bank balance feel free to lend me money lol

350 should be an easy target but expect to spend about 3-4k getting ther safely!

see above..

but are'nt you going to lend me the money panic

anyway whats next mod wise a turbo then?

yep gt28r or rs or rsr!


take your pick

the r is on a group buy from atp turbos for around the £600 mark the rs is obtainable for about £750 and pass on the rsr i neve found out.

i know of a second hand gt28r with downpipe for £450 if your interested!

how much of a bhp gain would a turbo give me goose

40bhp but you mite have to do something with your exhaust system and then get another remap too

Neither GT28R or RSR will give you 350bhp without headwork. If you're just after a headline figure buy yourself a 0.86 GT28RS or GT2871R. The 0.64 GT28RS should get you 350 with the right ancillary mods but it won't come cheap.

That sounds like a challenge to me Kenno.

i thot that too and look where it got me lol

I've got a hat here with some salt and pepper incase you break 350bhp Matty.

Remember - it must be a standard engine.

You might like to think about some better pads to go with those 20 grooves if you get nearer to your goal . Green stuff (EBC, I assume) aren't a whole lot better than standard ones IMHO. Get yourself some Red stuff or, better still, some Pagid Blues .

Sorry, brakes before power lecture over for this evening !

Phil

I'm 100% standard. But if she breaks it's your fault for setting that challenge.

LOL.. your mission SHOULD you choose to accept it.

Right 2 bar of boost here I come.

What if i get over 350bhp kenno?

Ross

Aye, like you've got a standard head Ross. Your head is mad.



So is the one on your car.

Yeah but what about the 28r?? over 350bhp without mapped?

Ross

I'm not saying it's impossible.

It's just without porting the manifold, getting a flowed head, using an uprated fuel pressure regulator/fuel pump/injectors, water injection, 350bhp is a big ask for a standard engine with the R and RSR. Considering how much that little list above costs, an extra £200 for a GT28RS over the GT28R is a cheaper way to get to 350bhp.

and Ross.. you may get 350bhp unmapped but somewhere in your rev range the fuelling won't be optimal.

Matty - 2Bar eh? It'll make 400bhp but just the once..

Lol. And im pretty sure if you had a wideband lambda, you'd find the same

Ross

I have an AEM Wideband AFR Gauge in my Nomad pillar...

And having spent £500 for a mapping session I bet mine's much better than yours.

Well what was the problem with getting the power from your car then? Thought proper mapping was the biz?

Ross

A faulty DV and lack of fuel at the top end didn't give me the top end figures i wanted. I'm going to use a 3.8bar reg next time. IIRC Suba with his GT28R and headwork couldn't get more than 320bhp until he installed a 3.8Bar reg.

Where are your graphs?

Graphs?

http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b176/h2ypr/?action=view¤t=Copyofdigipics001.jpg

This is with gtech2, running slightly rich midrange (nothing to worry about really).

Ross

Well I will push 350bhp. Question is, how much more?

U know my feelings on this dude. Doubt u will break it with proper mixture of fuel.

More torque = yes. More bhp? Doubt it. Redline figures are all good.

Ross

change your pads now greenstuff pads are only rated to 200bhp

Are you telling me to get it mapped Ross?

Eh?

how can brake pads have anything to do with power?

How well a pad perfroms is down to caliper design, disc material, size and thickness and the weight of the car.

green stuff is rated up to 200bhp.

iirc the reason for this is that it has something to do with the speed of the car e.g. a 300bhp car is faster than a 200bhp car so you need more braking force to stop the car , that’s way a fiesta 1.1 has tiny discs and a coop has 304mm by 28mm disks . It’s all to do with 1/2mv squared

still mad though - a 200bhp Limo will take a LOT more stopping than a 200bhp Clio

If it was right, everyone would do it

I reckon its a simple (and probably effective) ploy to attract the chavs

"200bhp brake pads - innit"

Nope. Im telling you that with the correct afr (u were running too lean) that u will lose power, hence being further away from 350.

Ross

We'll see.

but how quick is a 350bhp coupe, would it be rapid as feck

Its ok. I dont get in mines (335bhp) and think "OMG this is amazin" but its quicker than stnd by a margin yes. Do i think its worth all the expense and worry? No. Buy a faster stnd car.

Ross

Ahhhhhhhh you don't mean that Wossy.

Be careful When I had my car mapped at perfect touch, they said anyone trying to squeeze more than 320lbs of torque from an engine with standard internals would be very sorry

Apparently, they have had a number of people who insisted that they squeeze out more power and torque but they have all ended up with spectacular failures. I saw the results, and it looked very nasty.

However, they have had a few monster coupes with masses of forged and balanced internals that have yielded spectacular results.

Buy an Evo







I'm going to die for saying that....

You dead yet?

I'm sure you can do it - I'm 6 bhp short. I could get there with another 300 revs easy, and that's without porting the manifold or slapping in the cams I have sitting in the cupboard....

Maybe just a cold run....

350 bhp = 3 inch exhuast with 5 stud adaptor from the turbo.
3.8 bar fuel regulator
GT28RS 0.86
voltage mod for the fuel pump
Straight induction pipe
Remap on V power
Paddle / organic clutch or walkers / gta combo if under 300 lbs ft

That's assuming your car's engine is tip top, compression tested etc. At that power level you are on the limit of the standard internals, and without cams or headwork you'll have to push the power by upping the boost - so dont save up just enough money for the mods and then have a pile of scrap you can't afford to fix when it goes pop.

You also have to hold the power down so decent withbones, engine mounts etc.

Thanks for the vote of confidence......

Once its through the mot etc, i'll get down the rollers.

Ross

thanks suba thats all i wanted to know oh yeah and will the car be fast

Define 'fast'. Then we'll tell you if it'll be fast.

Put out a classified ad -
350BHP wanted. Must have GSOH

as quick as evo mq320, m3 new shape , just what it will keep up with.

Off the line - no chance. Traffic light GP's aren't the coupé's forté. Unless you have a paddle clutch and are willing to sit looking like a prat with your engine hovering around 4k at the lights. Even then the Evo and M3 will be ahead as they have more mechanical grip.

Rolling, (and dry) you should have enough pace to keep up with an Evo FQ320, M3 (maybe even the V8), Carrera 996/7's (not forced induction derivatives), Audi RS*...

Basically speaking 350bhp, low transmission losses and 1300kg is going to hold it's own against alot of cars.

With 350bhp you could be harassing DB9s, Porsche 911 (all but the top turbos), Ferrari 355s and 360s, Maser 4200s, and all sorts of jap stuff

sounds good to me the only thing is will have to keep spending out on repairs or are the engines still strong

Engines are strong provided you've spent money on getting it mapped.

Or u can check that its running correctly.

Ross

yes, by getting it mapped

There's little chance that a 350bhp Coupe will be totally reliable without some car-specific fuelling adjustments

It will probably run OK, but there will be parts of the rev range where its not optimal

I have to say, although your right, you have to reset your ecu every week, and for the money you've spent, i'll just stick to what i know.

As for parts in the rev range that are not optimal.... i'd love to see someone with a PT map go for a rolling road elsewhere (if this has been done please tell me) and see if the fuelling is perfect...

Ross

I've test driven an E46 M3 - my car on 1.1 bar felt noticeably quicker and more aggressive - though I have no side by side comparison.

PT fuelling is always on the rich side by the sounds of things. My car doesn't run as rich as any of the PT cars.

They probably don't just run it rich to get more advance but also for more safety as they do not know which compensations are being applied whilst they are mapping.

My car mapped by them runs 11.5 - PTS mapped it at 11.9...

Would you upgrade the injectors for 350...? eg. 16VT?

Suba & Nigel - you have Unichips?

Al

I run standard injectors at 3.8 bar fuel pressure - mapped with a unichip. Plenty of fuel there although the injectors are maxxed out.

Nigel runs bigger injectors the unichip can't deal with so his car has been live mapped.

Suba on Unichip, Nigel on livemap.

JohnS - i thought the extra was solely for extra advance. The extra advance is quite high (on the scale of things) but the mapped suba's the same, and *touch wood* no problems for him.

Ross

Sigh I really should get round to a remap....

What you running just now?

Ross

a Barbz set up Novitec Chip

Just thinking - once you've got to 350bhp (thats 269bhp/ton)

If you go on a big diet and loose 150 kg then you'll have over 300bhp/ton

- nearly the same as going the extra hog/expense/hassle/cost for 400bhp (307bhp/ton):D



Or.... you could just get 400bhp and loose 150kg... (347/ton)

even with a 3.8bar FRP, you're right on the limit of stock 20vt injectors (mine were maxxed even at 300bhp on a stock FPR)

Ross - the reason for the ECU reset is because I WANT it to run right. After a week, its drifted away from a perfect map. So without ANY map, you're going to be no better than my car after a few days without a reset. I can feel the difference as soon as I've done a reset. Therefore, by a simple process of elimination, my car doesn't run at its best unless I'm on the PT map - ergo, when the ECU is left to its own devices, it runs less well. I can't see what you beleive that an unmapped 350bhp car is anything other than a bad idea.

BadBoy - I iused to run a Unichip, but now I'm live mapped

So upgrrade to the 16vt?

Whats involved? Just take off the 20vt and replace with the 16vt?

Similarly the FPR - how do you wasp and wher do you get one?

If I added these things to the car would it be ok before being mapped or would that end in tears?

Questions questions

Oh and Nigel when you say reset teh ECU - do you mean reset it to the Map that PT made for you as as you are using the car the ECU remakes its own map?

(If you get what I mean)

Using the standard injectors over 300bhp is pushing it - I had mine professionally cleaned to make sure I could get the most out of them. The problem is that the unichip can't control the fuelling well off boost so with bigger injectors the standard ECU still 'sees' them as standard and when it makes changes gets very confused. 440 cc injectors would be ideal, but you would need a live map or aftermarket ECU - IMO the live mapped cars on bigger injectors (Nigel, Flea) have had issues with the ECU learning and changing things - which I'm not keen on personally.

I completely agree with Nigel in that going to 300bhp+ mapping the car is a must if you want it to run good power safely.

whether you can or cannot get 350BHP out of the std 330cc/min injectors is a product of how efficient your setup is as much as anything. More boost gives you more fuel through the regulator - if it is a 3 bar regulator then at 1.5 bar boost the fuel rail should have 4.5 bar pressure.
Also the pressure your pump gives makes a difference, and the various Walbro GSS340, 341 and 342 all give slightly different results as does the effectiveness of your pump voltage mod. I think some people have the low pressure walbro 255lph which doesn't give as good results.

This might be really dumb... But can you live map a unichip?

Suba - Where did you get your injectors cleaned?

Would Aquamist not be a good adition to say 330+ for aditional safety?

Thanks
Al

A unichip is always live mapped so to speak.

For cleaning anywhere with an ASNU cleaner will do. LSUK (formerly Lucus) branches often have the equipment - try http://www.lsuk.co.uk

Live map = custom chip for the standard ECU
Unichip = Piggyback ECU that fools the ECU into seeing different values and adjusts the maps via this. Look at the dastek website for details.

Torque Italia sent off my injectors for cleaning.

Aquamist - IMO no, but depends on the setup and whether you want to run it with methanol (you'll need something like a unichip to control a map for this). Without methanol you are effectively slapping water into the cylinders and retarding the ignition - they will run cooler, but you'll also loose power, so you might find that lowering the boost without it gives the same results. If you either start a separate thread or look on the aquamist website you can learn some more. Some chaps like mist and some dont - we're talking proper tuners here. it is certainly relevant for very high boost applications where the car is detting and there's no other way of preventing it.

Would smothing like Auto Integrale's DTA Pro series programmable ECU be a good choice? Motec would be nice...

And more questions I'm afraid -

At which stage do cam's come in? I know that the big power boys are running them...

And also when would a swirl pot etc start to become necessary?

I'm not really sure where the Coupé project is heading at the moment, would really like to go all out but unfortunatly I'm going to have to hold off for another 8months until I graduate, on the plus side I have been offered a job when I do...

The C&B cams are good even if the car is otherwise standard. They are much better than OE and spread the powerband across the whole range.

External swirl pot is probably above 350BHP. When I had 408BHP I used to have problems with the swirl pot emptying in the tank occasionally which can be quite dangerous for your engine as I would have a sudden drop in fuel pressure. As long as you keep the tank over half full when booting it then it isn't such a problem. Shame it does this as there is a different more elegant solution to an external swirl put and pump for in-tank but it won't work on the coupe.

A fully programmable ECU is always a good choice but the cost/benefit is really in the cost of remaps.

Thanks for all the answers guys, Have kind of taken over the thread! (sorry!)

Firstly, your experience of this and that is YOUR experience. I have PLENTY of fuel when i need it. I had an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and had to turn it down to stnd pressure because i already had plenty. Now running stnd 3.0 bar reg again and still LOADS of fuel.

Secondly, "after a week its drifted away from a perfect map"?? Sorry? Thousands of pounds later and the map isnt staying with the ecu for longer than a week without a reset. Who's running the bigger risk? I have a constant setup with my car (running slightly rich midrange and perfect fuelling redline) and have a wideband lamdba gauge to monitor at all times. You, on the other hand, have a narrowband lambda gauge, which is just as good as neon washer jets, and have an "unstable" map which drifts to a lean setup after a week. U have no way of gauging this apart from noticing that your narrowband shows one light less on the rich scale. I have spend money on gauges and fuel regulators (£300), also along with replacing lambda sensor and cleaning map sensor.

I think in the grand scheme of things im actually doing better. More stable, more aware of whats going on, more money in my pocket that hasnt been wasted.

As for an unmapped 350bhp car, who said anything about unmapped? I just dont believe in spending loads of money when a simplier cheaper solution is available.

When i get the time (And money) i will get a rolling road booked to check my new torque/bhp rating, and then i will know whether i have cracked 350bhp or not.

Ross

Edited to say : Anyways, your the one with the probable det problem Nigel. Little end on 5th cylinder away? According to most, 5th cylinder is the one mostly likely to suffer from heat problems, so little end on 5th usually from det.

That was a fair rant!

det will nuke a piston Ross......

This is turning into a fair old post now.

Remind me not to ask how to get 351bhp?!

Nigel I think your situation is as bad as Ross; If your maps are going out then your ECU is not internally balanced and so the adaptive element is causing your map to go off when closed loop. Ross at least knows his will be the same day in day out and accepts the fact he might have the odd rich spot. I think unmapped cars have moved on quite a bit because there is now such a wide selection of chips you can get one that is pretty close to your setup - potentially close enough not to warrant a 400 quid outlay or however much a live map costs.


Ross - I doubt nigel's problem is det, no need to have a dig.

I do. 290bhp in a Coop was enough to keep up just fine with a E46 M3 on the straights. If corners are involved forget it.

The difference is the M3 would do it all day long 365 days per year without a murmur. In a 300bhp Coop you cross your fingers, toes, and stroke your lucky rabbits foot that something doesn't break.

LOL

.
Erm...,depends who's driviing

Boys and their toys.

Time to stick my oar in Just been reading through

I'm gonna make no boasts about power coz I honestly don't know my exact figures the now (hopefully going to get a full remap and new graphs next month). All I know is the car has over 310bhp @ wheels (conservative RR to check fueling which was curtailed when a boost pipe burst) and was making about 380 before the rebuild with forged internals and change of FMIC and manifold.

Personally I think its a big mistake to go for anywhere near 350bhp on standard injectors. Even with uprated regulators etc asking for trouble.

Same goes for standard internals. Running higher boost puts a lot more strain on the ring lands especially even if it isn't detting.

Looking at mapping itself - the leaner the car the more power can be produced - within reason. Thats where mapping becomes a black art! Go too lean and obviously gonna det itself to pieces.

As most of you know I'm running a GT3071wg on a fully rebuilt engine with forged rods and pistons. 3" exhaust, tubular manifold etc

I run 16vt injectors with a Gtec2 Mk1 and these are controlled by a unichip. I have absolutely no problem with the mapps reverting etc. In a perfect world I'd go standalone, but the ££££ is a tad off putting.

In terms of performance I know I'm quicker than a 385bhp evo 7 with carbon bonnet and rear while running 2 up so that shall do for me

Meant to add, I'd love to see some of these cars RR'd together and also raced together

Results could be 'interesting'...

That's good to hear Fergie. I have never experienced any learning either... I thought I had recently but it turns out that my exhaust had split on a mounting bracket which was right next to my wideband lambda Damn thing was getting wider and wider and my fueling was getting leaner and leaner except that it wasn't, just air being sucked in to the gasses!

As for gaining more power from leaning the mixture, yes you can or in the case of PT they like to run it much richer to get more ignition advance. By comparison, Owen Devs run it a lot leaner but the ignition map isn't as aggressive. Horses for courses although I know which one I prefer...

A really good mapper can make mess with the advance at the boost point to really help the spool and then lean it out (within reason) toward the mid range and top to give the best of both worlds.

I would also argue that perfect touch isn't a live map. Its a simulated map the same as a Gtec / squadra is (just customised to your own car). In otherwords its done on a rolling road, not the OPEN ROAD.

Very few folk have the equipment to burn chips and map on the real road. Thats where Motec really comes into its own.

If any of you have ever noticed on the RR boost etc behaves very differently...

Actually PT will map on the rollers and on the road, although most cars will only see the rollers.

In terms of power, there are a number of ways to map a car. PT like to run it richer to get more ignition all the way to redline.

Totally agree with Barbz depends on who is driving. Anyone been at Knockhill and seen me hassling the evo boys will tell you the coue does not bad considering.

Fergie the whole thing of how much is too much on standard internals is itself looking more and more like a black art to me. I am now in the process of upgrading my turbo to something that will flow up to 400bhp but only because i'm thinking ahaed for the forged route. However when i get it mapped i'll be putting restrictions on it to keep it within safe levels of BHP and NM's. I'm sure it was JohnS who said that it all depends on how good your car is flowing on what is good and what is bad and i tend to agree. The injector thing is interesting and i'm sure we could have a discussion on this re-fuelling.

That's not really true - the 2.4s run less advance because they run a higher CR. My car cannot make any more power with more fuel as anyway I'm making more than anyone has seen on a GT3076R on pump fuel pretty much regardless of engine type and regardless of the fact I run a lot less boost than most people on this turbo. The beauty of Barbz' engineering I guess, much like on yours that makes more on a GT2871R than anyone could reasonably expect.

Maybe Owens do back off the advance more than PT do - couldn't definitively say. Turns out my car made another 22BHP (590BHP) on road fuel without pinking but they didn't consider that safe at this power level and I asked for it to be conservative anyway. This is all mapped without water injection and then my water injection was added on top with fuel compensation but no extra advance either.

John, I wasn't just talking about 2.4s but the 2.0s also. All things being equal e.g. CR, Mark isn't quite as aggressive as Rob when it comes to mapping, this shows in terms of AFR and ignition timing. IMO, Rob is naturally too aggressive therefore you need to reign him in somewhat. Sometimes less is more...

Fair enough

Thinking about what Barbz and Sparco said, I guess "how fast" is largely down to

A. Who is driving
B. You may have 350hp but without decent tyres for the grip on straights and with out decent suspension and brakes for the corners If you can't get the power down - who Cares how fast you are / power you have?

A wise man said to me once "I dont want more than 300hp so I can still drive my car in the rain!"

Fuelling is such a weird issue. Im sure if everyone had brand new injectors, we could do a comparison, but it ranges so much. As i mentioned earlier, i have never had the problem of running lean.

Ross

Maybe Barbz can tell us the correct answer?

- Barbz, How do you get 350bhp?


Or is it a secret

don't know what all the fuss is about...mapped unmapped etc

If the result achieves the goal you set to achieve safely who cares?

My car was "unmapped" but the fueling was safe with no det.

I achieved well over 350bhp and i ran standard injectors and approx 3bar fuel pressure at the rail.

Even when the spark plugs were checked you could see that the fuelling was very good due the golden brown colour not sooty or black like some.

Amen In fact Markus was an orignal high boost hero running 1.8bar all "unmapped"... Barbz must have cast a very complex magical protection charm over that one

The answers are in the debate, all depends which camp you follow?

Maybe there isn't a straight answer to "how do you get 350bhp?"

Maybe the answer is how ever you manage to get there, well done!

All hail....

Lol.

Ross

State the obvious Ross

Does anyone find it quite surreal that Barbz is classed as a "Newbee"?

i was thinking that too, bt is it really him and is the post real???

Lol. Its barbz.

Ross

Barbz is hopeless with computers Yes its him.

Yes you could run 400bhp on standard internals and get away with it. Question is for how long... (Don't they do this in Scandanavia, but then the air temps are much lower?)

The simple answer is not as long as having forged internals - all being equal

We all agree heat is a killer - thats how so many standard turbos running big boost die - and lack of oil. But is boost pressure? Or is that the catalyst for heat? Fueling and det is another issue. We all know the coupe ringlands are pretty weak.