1 registered members (szkom),
124
guests, and 1
spider. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums69
Topics113,641
Posts1,341,442
Members1,814
|
Most Online731 Jan 14th, 2020
|
|
|
Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
#911754
05/10/2009 10:05
05/10/2009 10:05
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554 Nottingham
Cyclone
OP
Enjoying the ride
|
OP
Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554
Nottingham
|
Hi All, If you took a standard 20VT and wanted to upgrade it to give a solid and consistent 350bhp, what would need to be done (parts, labour etc) and approximately how much would this cost. I am interested to hear all opinions and also from anyone who has taken this route and with who you had this work done. Cheers Jules. ps No naff comments re Reliable in my title
Last edited by Cyclone; 05/10/2009 10:06.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Cyclone]
#911771
05/10/2009 10:19
05/10/2009 10:19
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
Hi Jules
You are pretty much on the limits of the standard internals for that power.
I would go for something like this
GT2871R 0.64 FC Performance Map Larger injectors (440cc??) Full exhaust system with 3"downpipe without the V-Band Walbro 255lph EBC of some sort FMIC SIP with cone filter
And some brakes and suspension to go with it.
I think you are looking at around £3500 before suspension and brake mods. Depends whether you want the extra reliability of the forged internals.
Edit-Forgot the clutch. Helix Organic so add approx another £500.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#911789
05/10/2009 10:42
05/10/2009 10:42
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,568 Northampton England
Sedicivalvole
Club member 2092
|
Club member 2092
Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,568
Northampton England
|
Interesting So why no V-Band Mr M? What would be the cost of forged internals?
Vinci Grey LE Alfa 147 GTA 3.2 V6 BMW E92 M3 4.0 V8 Fiat Tipo Sedicivalvole 2.0 16v ABS
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Sedicivalvole]
#911804
05/10/2009 11:04
05/10/2009 11:04
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
V band is a big restriction. No point having a 3" downpipe if you have a V band before it.
Forged Internals
£1000-1500 for the pistons + rods £100-150 for a rebore
then you have all the bits which you might as well change whilst you are there
belts and tensioners £150 water pump £50 Gaskets £150 Head Bolts £50 Bearings £50
I really can't remember all of them, and some bits you will replace which you weren't expecting. Before you know it you are getting towards £1k just for little bits.
Then you start thinking why don't I get headwork (£1k+), cams (£500) and balance the crank (couple more hundred).
It all adds up very very quickly and you haven't even got the labour yet.
PS All these are approximate prices.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#911807
05/10/2009 11:07
05/10/2009 11:07
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728 N.E Scotland
mattB
Club member 6
|
Club member 6
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728
N.E Scotland
|
Just wave some cash under eldinho's nose and take his off him.
Death-rattle-tastic
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Cyclone]
#911842
05/10/2009 11:44
05/10/2009 11:44
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
You probably will get 350bhp with the RS but at higher boost. The GT2871R doesn't really spool up that much later.
I would personally go for some bigger injectors rather than maxing out the standard ones. Its not really an issue going for bigger injectors anymore with Leighton on the scene. I'm running 630cc injectors with no issues.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#911852
05/10/2009 11:55
05/10/2009 11:55
|
TurboJ
Unregistered
|
TurboJ
Unregistered
|
To do the job once and properly your looking around 5-7K. IMO RS would be wasted on forged internals. 28/30 71 is the really good choice.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#911864
05/10/2009 12:05
05/10/2009 12:05
|
Steve_G
Unregistered
|
Steve_G
Unregistered
|
You may also not get away with std injectors i have a 3.8 bar fpr and flea ran out of duty at approx 300 bhp.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Cyclone]
#911869
05/10/2009 12:10
05/10/2009 12:10
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
I don't think many cars will get to 350 on standard injectors without the aid of methanol. Which isn't really the best solution.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Cyclone]
#911870
05/10/2009 12:11
05/10/2009 12:11
|
suba
Unregistered
|
suba
Unregistered
|
I know that you have said that you want 350 bhp - have you considered around 330bhp? You could keep the standard internals, and go for a GT28RS running lowish boost and achieve that without too much trouble without headwork on a standard engine running good compression as long as you have the relevant supporting mods. 300bhp would be a breeze on a 20VT.....would not cost a lot to get there, and the car would be very driveable on the road.
Standard injectors will also flow that without / without 3.8 bar fuel pressure....they will be maxed out, and it is preferable to go bigger, but then costs do start to mount up.
It would be far cheaper to go this route, and as you mention that a 2871 would be too laggy for you I doubt that you really need to think about a fully balanced, flowed, and forged engine....if I was to go down that route I'd go for a GT30 and learn to live with the lag.
I would look for a modded coupe to buy in the first place that is running strong compression - even if it ends up needing a re-build it would likely end up cheaper than starting with a standard car in good condition.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#911872
05/10/2009 12:11
05/10/2009 12:11
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554 Nottingham
Cyclone
OP
Enjoying the ride
|
OP
Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554
Nottingham
|
To do the job once and properly your looking around 5-7K. IMO RS would be wasted on forged internals. 28/30 71 is the really good choice. Really? Can you give a break down of where the £5-£7k would be spent please? Remember I've already said that the 28/3071 route is not really the choice I'd opt for unless there was obvious reasons to change my mind. I am happy to go with the GT28RS as from my previous experience these were more responsive than the slightly laggier bigger brothers. So possibly no reason to go forged internals? Jules.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#911889
05/10/2009 12:21
05/10/2009 12:21
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554 Nottingham
Cyclone
OP
Enjoying the ride
|
OP
Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554
Nottingham
|
I know that you have said that you want 350 bhp - have you considered around 330bhp? You could keep the standard internals, and go for a GT28RS running lowish boost and achieve that without too much trouble without headwork on a standard engine running good compression as long as you have the relevant supporting mods. 300bhp would be a breeze on a 20VT.....would not cost a lot to get there, and the car would be very driveable on the road.
Standard injectors will also flow that without / without 3.8 bar fuel pressure....they will be maxed out, and it is preferable to go bigger, but then costs do start to mount up.
It would be far cheaper to go this route, and as you mention that a 2871 would be too laggy for you I doubt that you really need to think about a fully balanced, flowed, and forged engine....if I was to go down that route I'd go for a GT30 and learn to live with the lag.
I would look for a modded coupe to buy in the first place that is running strong compression - even if it ends up needing a re-build it would likely end up cheaper than starting with a standard car in good condition. Good balanced reply and more in line with my current thoughts. I appreciate that the end result may be somewhere between 330-350bhp, but asking for opinion at 350bhp I knew would get a good array of split opinion and advice which is all good. Interesting comments ref buying an already modded car versus a standard one as a starting point. My concerns with an already modded car is how hard it will already have been driven and it would have had to have had lots of TLC, less concerning is a std model provided it is just that. Absolutely key will be a compression test and of the cars I've already enquired on then I have aksed for this to be done in advance. At the moment I haven't seen any cars for sale that are part modified that would make a reasonable staring point, but I have seen at least one std model. Jules.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Cyclone]
#911895
05/10/2009 12:25
05/10/2009 12:25
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
Lukes car has everything you want. Maybe change the turbo to one that suits you, get it remapped and you have everything done (including handling) for less than £6k including the car.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Nigel]
#911904
05/10/2009 12:35
05/10/2009 12:35
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
but as long as the car is VERY well known, I don't think you have anything to fear But maybe you do
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Nigel]
#911910
05/10/2009 12:42
05/10/2009 12:42
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554 Nottingham
Cyclone
OP
Enjoying the ride
|
OP
Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554
Nottingham
|
Lukes car has everything you want. Maybe change the turbo to one that suits you, get it remapped and you have everything done (including handling) for less than £6k including the car. Jules - buy Luke's car!
It will be massively cheaper than building your own AND you'll be on the road straight away.
Its possible to get a coupe to 330 - 350 for not much more than a couple of grand, but it'll be right on its limits and it won't handle well. I guess you'd probably want it to handle and stop better than standard as well, so there's another grand to spend if you're doing it yourself.
OK - its satisfying to build the car yourself, but as long as the car is VERY well known, I don't think you have anything to fear I hear what you are saying and the spec of Lukes car is good for sure, but I am not keen on the laggier turbo and the power/torque it is making at 1.4 bar seems low? Also not too keen on the zender kit and the alloys, I know these can be changed but for me that is a bit of hassle I could do without. I like the std look as I did with my old Coupe many years ago, it just had the sills painted and was lowered slightly. Mechanically though Lukes car appears well looked after. Jules.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Cyclone]
#911912
05/10/2009 12:48
05/10/2009 12:48
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
eldinho
Unregistered
|
Change the turbo and get it remapped, stuff you would have to do anyway. The work would take you one day to change over including the turbo. Sell the wheels, GT3071R skirts etc and you will be making a profit. Personally I think the 3071R is more suited to a forged engine with a flowed head, but then I would say that! PS Lukes car sounds superb!
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Cyclone]
#912122
05/10/2009 18:01
05/10/2009 18:01
|
TurboJ
Unregistered
|
TurboJ
Unregistered
|
To do the job once and properly your looking around 5-7K. IMO RS would be wasted on forged internals. 28/30 71 is the really good choice. Really? Can you give a break down of where the £5-£7k would be spent please? Remember I've already said that the 28/3071 route is not really the choice I'd opt for unless there was obvious reasons to change my mind. I am happy to go with the GT28RS as from my previous experience these were more responsive than the slightly laggier bigger brothers. So possibly no reason to go forged internals? Jules. You said reliable 350BHP which means a FULL rebuild with forged internals. I did said a proper build so: Pistons & Rods £1300 Oil pump £350 Block Boring £120 Head rebuild no porting £200 Balancing £150 Turbocharger £700-1000 Gaskets sets and shells plus other bits from Fiat £500 Clutch £600 paddle £450 organic Injectors £140 Downpipe £250 Exhaust £300 FMIC £350 SIP £80 Airfilterr £50 Oils £100 Pagid Blues £140 Heat Wrap £40 Build Labour £500-800 (Depending) Mapping £400 So that’s about 6K already. Scary when you add things up
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#912133
05/10/2009 18:11
05/10/2009 18:11
|
Hani
Unregistered
|
Hani
Unregistered
|
Walbro 255lph fuel pump and wiring mod to be added to the list, around £80 It really adds up as TurboJ said
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#912137
05/10/2009 18:14
05/10/2009 18:14
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554 Nottingham
Cyclone
OP
Enjoying the ride
|
OP
Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554
Nottingham
|
To do the job once and properly your looking around 5-7K. IMO RS would be wasted on forged internals. 28/30 71 is the really good choice. Really? Can you give a break down of where the £5-£7k would be spent please? Remember I've already said that the 28/3071 route is not really the choice I'd opt for unless there was obvious reasons to change my mind. I am happy to go with the GT28RS as from my previous experience these were more responsive than the slightly laggier bigger brothers. So possibly no reason to go forged internals? Jules. You said reliable 350BHP which means a FULL rebuild with forged internals. I did said a proper build so: Pistons & Rods £1300 Oil pump £350 Block Boring £120 Head rebuild no porting £200 Balancing £150 Turbocharger £700-1000 Gaskets sets and shells plus other bits from Fiat £500 Clutch £600 paddle £450 organic Injectors £140 Downpipe £250 Exhaust £300 FMIC £350 SIP £80 Airfilterr £50 Oils £100 Pagid Blues £140 Heat Wrap £40 Build Labour £500-800 (Depending) Mapping £400 So that’s about 6K already. Scary when you add things up That I did, so thanks for your interpretation of that. I can now see where your £6k comes from. A few choices then really, but for me then it almost becomes non cost effective to go down this version of reliable at 350bhp as ultimately you'd have enough ammunition there for a safe 400bhp+. Although some don't seem to agree I am still siding with the GT28RS and associated fitments as the best route forward, mapped properly then it should reach close enough to 350bhp without being unreliable, it would also make more sense from a cost persepctive unless I wanted to really chase bhp figures at the risk of loosing driveability and low down responsiveness. Good info, keep it coming, Jules.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: barnacle]
#912139
05/10/2009 18:20
05/10/2009 18:20
|
MattW
Unregistered
|
MattW
Unregistered
|
I would go for a GT28R and headwork, rather than a huge turbo. wont quite reach 350 bhp but it would be a better car IMHO.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: barnacle]
#912143
05/10/2009 18:27
05/10/2009 18:27
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554 Nottingham
Cyclone
OP
Enjoying the ride
|
OP
Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554
Nottingham
|
Perhaps you should define 'reliable'.
Works for 10k miles? Works for 50k miles? Works if I poodle along on the commute and only boot it occasionally? Works if I take it to the track and wring its neck?
Can't help feeling there might be different answers. Yes there will be different answers and that's exactly what I want, not really a question of who or what is right and wrong, more an opportunity to guage opinion based on owner's experience and knowledge. Jules.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Cyclone]
#912153
05/10/2009 18:40
05/10/2009 18:40
|
TurboJ
Unregistered
|
TurboJ
Unregistered
|
With the list I have given you above adding the fuel pump gives you the ability to run upto 450BHP depending on turbo choice. I think it would be a waste to go through all that and stick on an RS with “lag” as a justification I know I’ve been there, in fact I’ve had four turbos on mine and driven many others too. IMO the RS is for those without forged internals and pushing the limit. If you’re not going down the rebuild/forged route then make sure you plan for it later down the line because it will go pop. The 71's are NOT laggy in fact I’ll bet I can out pull any r or rs
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#912221
05/10/2009 20:31
05/10/2009 20:31
|
Steve_G
Unregistered
|
Steve_G
Unregistered
|
And have But back on topic i have the r not upto the power you specify, but it makes for a brilliant road car. Quick spool etc, Giving approx 300 bhp (never been on an rr and dont really feel the need to) i believed that would be "reliable" on standard internals. Exept the lack of forged internals all my supporting mods could take much more power but thats what i felt was safe. And just to clarify i know a lot of people get far more power out of std injectors with the 3.8 bar fpr I didnt.
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: MattM]
#912301
05/10/2009 22:25
05/10/2009 22:25
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554 Nottingham
Cyclone
OP
Enjoying the ride
|
OP
Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554
Nottingham
|
I have recently upgraded from a GT28R to a GT28RS but with the bigger .86 housing. There is a bit more lag (maybe 200-300rpm but the top end pull is 10x better. Might be a consideration as i should be over 350bhp now On standard internals?
|
|
|
Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#912302
05/10/2009 22:27
05/10/2009 22:27
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554 Nottingham
Cyclone
OP
Enjoying the ride
|
OP
Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 554
Nottingham
|
With the list I have given you above adding the fuel pump gives you the ability to run upto 450BHP depending on turbo choice. I think it would be a waste to go through all that and stick on an RS with “lag” as a justification I know I’ve been there, in fact I’ve had four turbos on mine and driven many others too. IMO the RS is for those without forged internals and pushing the limit. If you’re not going down the rebuild/forged route then make sure you plan for it later down the line because it will go pop. The 71's are NOT laggy in fact I’ll bet I can out pull any r or rs Did yours go pop with an RS, did you find out the root cause or did you just make an assumption? Surely if it is modified and mapped correctly then it won't just go pop?
|
|
|
|